cusp.talk : Zhang An
J：采访者 , 卡斯普多特的朋友，采访者，靖雯
J：Interviewer,cuspdot’s friend, Jingwen
H：被访者， with the rubbles 的创始人， Hannah O’Flynn
H：Interviewee, Hannah O’Flynn, founder of with the rubbles
G：被访者 with the rubbles 的成员， Tian Guoxin
G：Interviewee, Tian Guoxin, member of with the rubbles
J：Interviewer,cuspdot’s friend, Jingwen
H：被访者， with the rubbles 的创始人， Hannah O’Flynn
H：Interviewee, Hannah O’Flynn, founder of with the rubbles
G：被访者 with the rubbles 的成员， Tian Guoxin
G：Interviewee, Tian Guoxin, member of with the rubbles
with the rubbles of old palaces entrance
during the exhibition of < Portrait or landscape, Anahita? >
J:
我很好奇，为什么组织取名为“with the rubbles of old palaces”？ 这背后有什么故事？
So I'm quite curious about the name of the organization "with the rubbles of old palaces" ? What is the story or consideration behind this?
H:
说实话，我有时会质疑这个名字是否是好的。这个名字很长，人们可能不容易记住它。但是，找到一个名字是一件很困难的事情，我们有一年的时间都无法做出决定。我们选定的现在的名字……是基于这个空间的政治理念的。它的意义是指不通过瓦解和破坏而作出改变，而是去利用现存的基础进行重新的建造和改变。我想，改变本身已经存在于一切之中。“old palaces”是指旧宫殿，代表着帝国的结构，或者说是一种压迫，“ the rubbles”意为瓦砾，则是意味着改变过程中始终存在着的人们，持续不断的变化着，建造着。
Yeah, I sometimes question if it's a good name, honestly. It's long, and people might not remember it easily. But, um, finding a name was a struggle, like, for a year we couldn't decide. The name we settled on... it's about the political idea of the space. It's not about destruction to make change but, uh, building with what's already there. The "old palaces"' here are referring as the structures of empire, oppression, and so on. And "rubbles" implies that there's always a lot of people working in change, the constant work, you know? So it's this political idea of it.
J:
嗯，不是去颠覆而是在现有的基础上建造。
Not subverting but building upon.
H:
其实我并不讨厌颠覆这个词。我对“反抗”这个词司作为一种永久状态表示迟疑。因为它总是伴随着毁灭，但我问自己，接下来会发生什么?反抗听起来就像一扇旋转门，你改变了，但又很容易回到同一个地方，360度旋转，变成一个与被摧毁的结构相似的结构。因此，我考虑采用一种破坏性较小的方法，也许可以让人们学习，而不是重新开始，并可能意外地再次犯同样的错误。
I actually do not dislike the word subvert. I have more or a problem with the word revolt as a permanent state. It is always done with destruction, but I ask myself, what comes after? Revolt sounds lik a revolving door, you change and can vewry easily end up in the same place, turning 360 degrees to a structure that resembles the one that was destroyed. So I consider a less destructive approach that perhaps allows one to learn, rather than start anew and possibly accidentally making the same mistakes again.
J:
您能简单介绍一下这个地方吗？是一个艺术空间、艺术组织、艺术团体吗？你会如何定义它？
Could you introduce a bit about this place? Is it an art space, an art organization, or an artistic group? How would you define it?
G:
我们没有固定的定义。
It is not so defined...
H:
嗯…“文化空间”也许比较合适，因为我们从事艺术、文化产出，而我们空间的重点在于一些研究性质的，工作坊和一些不那么物质的产出。我们主要关注政治和历史性的研究。
Ah… cultural space in general, because we are also doing art, and cultural production projects, and a part of our space is more based on the research, workshops, and stuff that's not so tangible. So, yeah, "cultural space" seems to work. It’s especially focused on political and historical research.
J:
它最初是何时, 如何成立的？
When and how was it originally founded?
H:
那是 2021 年 1 月，在德国新冠疫情封锁期间。最初，我们的想法不是拥有一个物理的空间。因为它成本高昂，我们的想法是四处游走移动，所以我们最初把它注册为一个协会团体。然后，惊喜的是，我们在五月被提供了这个空间。它以前是一间办公室，我们重新刷了漆，但是基本上我们不需要做太多改变。但是由于疫情的封锁，我们在 2021 年夏天才开始做一些项目。在此之前，我们都在以概念的框架下做事情，比如学习小组。
During the German COVID lockdown, that was January 2021. Initially, the idea wasn’t for a physical space because it’s costly, right? It was meant to be a concept, mobile. We started registering it as an association, which is still in process. Then, surprisingly, we were offered this space in May. It was previously an office, we painted it (the walls), but not much had to change. Due to the lockdown, we started programming in the summer of 2021. Before that, we did things under the conceptual umbrella, like study groups.
我和两个人一起开办了这个组织，不过后面他们退出了。其中一个人搬去了泰国，而另外一个人需要一些可以赚钱的工作。很明显的，一个空间需要很久的运营才能赚到钱。
I founded it with two other people, who at the end all left. One of them moved to Thailand, and the other person wanted to work on some other things to earn money. Obviously, A space needs a long time until money can be earned.
J:
可以向我介绍一下现在的成员吗？
Could you introduce us a bit about the current members?
H:
Guoxin我和她认识了有一年了，还有一些其他的人。现在我们有保罗（Pablo），有马克（Mark），还有 Johnny。乔恩（Joannie）专职在做雕塑，而马克（Marc）则从事表演、唱歌以及香水相关的工作。Pablo 正在创作音乐，Guoxin在创作雕塑 , Liu Chao在做戏剧。而我，正在做更多的艺术性研究。
Guoxin, we have known each other for a year now, and there are also other people who I have known for longer. So we have Tian Guoxin, Liu Chao, Pablo, Marc, Joannie. Joannie is doing sculpture, Mark is doing performance, singing and perfume. Pablo is making music, Guoxin is making sculpture, Chao is doing theatre. And I‘m doing art and research.
J:
你们是如何一起协助工作的？
How do you guys work together?
H:
我们比较随意的，遵循我们本性的。而且，我也认为，我们每个人都是不同的。我们有非常非常非常随意的成员，也有很有组织性的成员。另外，这也取决于那个项目是否是由政府资助的，如果是被资助的项目，我们会更加井然有序一些。
It's quite causal, I would say more by our nature. Also, I think each person is different. We have very very casual members, and we also have more organized members. Depends also on whether the project was funded by the government, if there is funding, they are definitely demanding us to be more organized.
J:
你是那个比较有组织性的人吗？
So are you the organized person in the group?
H:
哈哈哈，我不是一个很有组织性的人，但是一般都是我来做这部分的工作。我们还有一个朋友 Stephanie，很擅长做 Excel 表格，所以她也有帮助我们。如果有需要的时候，我们每个人都会发挥自身的作用。
Hahah, I am not a very organised person, but I do that job. There is also another friend Stephanie who is very good at Excel sheets, so she is helping with that. So with that frame, I guess it's quite casual, depends on what people need, and people move inside of that.
J:
我实际上在网站上读到了有关“Vladmail”这个学习小组的一些内容，我认为非常有趣。你们应该一直做下去。您能告诉我们更多有关“Vladmail”研究小组的信息吗？
I read something about this study group ''Vladmail''on your website I think is super interesting. You should really keep doing this. Could you tell us more about this study group ''Vladmail''?
H:
Vladmail 学习小组是我们曾经组织的一个学习小组，是由一位来自秘鲁的艺术家，我们其中一位原始创始人还有我一起发起的。它开始于疫情期间，那时我们还在读硕士，我们萌发了这个想法。 当时我们认识许多做深入学术研究的人，他们也正在寻找一个平台可以来讨论他们的研究课题。因此，我们发起了每周一次的会议，严格来说并不是每周一次，因为这取决于每个人的空闲时间。通常，一个成员会介绍他们的研究课题，我们会邀请一些可以对讨论做出有意义贡献的个人来进行讨论延展，我们会用 1-3 小时的围绕着话题进行讨论。
"Vladmail" was a a study group in an interesting format we started with an artist from Peru, one of the founders, and myself. It began during the pandemic, around the time we were still doing our master's degrees, and we came out of this idea. We knew many people who were deep into their research and were looking for a platform to discuss their findings. So, we initiated a weekly meeting, although it wasn't strictly every week, as it depended on everyone's availability. Typically, a member would present their research, and we would bring in individuals who could contribute meaningfully to the discussion, usually around 1 to 3 hours of discussion, which worked well.
J:
这个小组是对外开放的吗？
Is the group open to the public?
H:
哦不，因为当时我们还没有这个空间，我们会邀请不同的人参加我们的讨论，一些我们觉得与话题相关的人，但我们保留了这些会议的录音。我们很久没有做这个小组了，其实我很希望重启这个小组，但你知道，这需要很多的实验和筛选，有的时候人们来参加阅读小组，甚至不会阅读任何材料，他们只是想参与在一个小组里，在一个人群中。
Ah, no, it wasn't. because at the time we were not running this physical space. It was more like an invitation only, we invited different groups of people for different topics, with the people who are relevant to the topic, but we've kept recordings of those sessions. We haven't done this study group for a long time, I want to start this format again. You know it demands testing and selection on the group. Sometimes in reading groups, people don't even read texts.
J:
遇到的最大的困难或挑战是什么？
What's been the biggest difficulty or challenge you've faced?
H:
说实话，德国的制度很棘手，因为你需要提前一年申请资助。然后你只能陷入无尽的等待，不知道下一年最终是否能得到它。明年，随着经济危机，谁知道呢？ 也许我们不会得到任何的资助。这个还蛮头疼的。还有就是会计的部分，这需要花费很多时间。还有就是写资助申请，如何去填申请报告，也是很难的部分。(Guoxin) 你会怎么说？
The German system is tricky because you apply for funding a year in advance. You're left waiting, not knowing if you'll get it or not. Next year, with the economic crisis, who knows? Maybe we don’t get any funding at all. It's quite stressful. And accounting, it takes a lot of hours. And the (funding) applications, learning how to write the application is diffcult.(Guoxin) what would you say?
G:
申请资助的每一步都很难。（笑）但其实今年我们很幸运，因为我们获得了两项资助金，资助了今年我们做的两个项目，虽然不能完完全全覆盖掉我们所有人的生活成本，但是至少让我们拥有了一些收入。我们现在在申请一个 2 年的资助金，是关于我们空间存续的资助，因为现在我们的空间其实并没有一个稳定的资金，我们的资金都是以项目为单位的。
I think every part is very hard. (Laugh) but this year we took part very luckily, we got two fundings for two projects this year, which couldn't fully cover our living, but at least we got some income. Recently we were applying for a 2-year-project funding, which is more like funding for our functional needs space-wise,because our space doesn't have stable funding, our previous funding was more project-based.
H:
但是那个资助今年缩减了不少，说实话，我不觉得我们能拿到那些钱。
And they made a lot of cuts on funding this year. To be honest, I don't think we could get any.
J:
我也听说了这个事情，政府对今年的资助项目和资助金进行了大幅度的削减。
I heard about that as well, the government cut off and reduced a big amount of the funding.
H:
是的 ... ( 叹气）我们也是为了得到资助金而选择留在德国的，如果没有这些，我们也不知道该如何是好。
Yes…(sign) and thats also the reason why I live in Germany (to be able to get funding for the space. If we dont have that, actually I don't know what should I do.
G:
而且如果我们得到了那个资助金，就意味着我们就不被允许用这个空间赚钱，我们甚至不能在开幕的时候卖一些酒水。
Even if we get the funding, that means we are not allowed to make any money using this space, we can't even sell the drinks at exhibition openings.
H:
也不能把我们的空间租赁给别人。
Or rent our space to the others.
J:
只能做非营利的事。如果你得到了公共资助，你就只能靠这个资助活着，不能做其他事情。
You can only do non-profit things. If you get public funding, you can only live with the funding, and can't do anything else.
H & G:
是的，基本如此。
Basically.
H:
或者通过会员制获得的一些钱，或者就是捐款。但是谁会捐款呢？所有我认识的人现在都很穷。
Or memberships, or donations. But who would donate now? Everyone I know is super broke now.
Everyone:
哈哈哈哈
Hahahaha
G:
我现在也在一个很庞大的组织工作，即便如此，他们也会每年申请资助，像我们一样的流程。
I work in a big institution as well, they are also applying for funding every year, it's the same structure.
J:
我想理想的状态是，有一个部门专门可以去做申请资助和咨询相关的工作。
Ideally, I guess in an organization, there should be a department to do the funding application work and administration.
H:
问题是我们现在只有我们自己，所以我们非常非常的累。哈哈哈。
But the problem is we only have ourselves, it is very exhausting . Haha.
J:
在德国，您认为政府或者社区、街坊给您提供了什么帮助吗？
Did the government and community provide help to you?
H:
德国是一个非常官僚主义的国家，除了申请资助没有其他任何的帮助。我想如果你在一个艺术家圈子里，人们会互相帮助对方。但是如果单单说“社区”本身，完全对我们没有什么帮助。我的意思是，德国也同样是一个非常个人主义的国家。你知道的。
Okay, no. It's a very bureaucratic country, without funding, we couldn't get any help from it. So I think if you have a community of artists, people would help each other. Mhm. But not the ''neighborhood'' itself. I mean, it's also a very individualistic country.
J:
明白了。像 cuspdot我问过他们如何谋生。他们说，基本上靠卖东西，他们设计一些周边，然后用这个收入维持运营，还有就是，当他们举办展览时，参观者会支付一个门票钱。
Yeah I understand, I talked about this with cuspdot, about how they make a living. And they said basically that they just sell some stuff, they design some art merchandise and sell them, to support and sustain the space. Also, the audience needs to pay for a ticket to the exhibition.
H:
我们在这里免费做这件事，也是因为有政府的资助。而且，一旦我们作为 “非营利协会”，我们实际上就不被允许收费。但收费本也不是我们的意图，因为我们希望让这个组织越低门槛，越近人越好。另外，这也是至少我自己搬到德国的原因。我来自西班牙，在那里你很难获得资助，所以你常常位于容易剥削自己和他人的情况，我不希望这样做。而且来自政府的支持也同时会同时带来更多的限制。
Here, we are doing this for free, but also because we have funding. Also once we're defined as a nonprofit association, we're not allowed to charge any money. ( Charging money ) is also never our intention, we wish to make this space as accessible as possible. That's also the reason why, at least myself, moved to Germany.I think in other context, like for example, I come from Spain, it is harder to get funding, so it often gives place to situation where you easily exploit yourself and others, and I am against that. But the support of the government also comes along with a lot of limitation.
G:
过去 (Hannah) 觉得这个城市已经不需要更多这样的空间了，最近这些事发生后（战争开始后），最近 (Hannah) 又觉得其实这个城市需要更多这样的空间。
Hannah used to think this city didn't need more space like us, but after the things that happened recently (the Palestinian-Israeli conflict), Hannah thought the city needed more space like us.
H:
是的......现在的世界局势让我意识到这是非常必要的。
Yeah…with the political situation now I realize that it is very necessary.
J:
柏林有类似你们的自组织吗？
Is there any self-organization like your space in Berlin?
G&H:
有很多。
There are a lot.
H:
说实话，柏林已经很饱和了，因为柏林提供很多资助金，所以很多人为此而搬到这里。其实我更乐意用这个钱在其他更需要的地方开一个空间。我不觉得德国这么需要我们的组织，现在西班牙维持一个艺术空间真的很难，如果在西班牙我可以获得同样的资助，我会想在西班牙也开一个这样的空间，也是因为我在巴塞罗那长大。另外我想很多欧洲以外的城市，也很需要这样的组织。
Honestly, Berlin is very saturated right now, because they provide a lot of funding, so people are moving here for that. I would be really happy if I could open the space with this funding in other places where it is more needed. I don't think Germany needs this space. I would be happy if this could be funded in Spain because there were a lot of funding cuts. I grew up in Barcelona, It's really hard to run an art space in Spain. Honestly, I think many other places outside of Europe also really need this space.
J:
因为你觉得柏林已经有很多可以开放对谈的空间了对吗？
Because you think there is already enough space for people to have open discussions in Berlin?
H:
柏林吗？我甚至不觉得这里有任何可以开放对谈的地方。（思考）现在。其实根本没有。
No. I think Berlin doesn't really have spaces where you can have an open discussion right
now...( Thinking) yeah, I don't think there is.
J:
尤其是如果你获得了公共资助，你失去了很多话语权，不是吗？很多话都不能再说，不能讨论，有很多的限制。
Especially if get public funding, there is of course limitation on what you say and talk about, and how you gonna discuss certain topics.
H:
（无奈）是的，就是这样。现在的德国，变得很极端。
(Resignedly) Yes, it is like that. Germany became quite extreme now.
J:
最近，所有的公共机构，戏剧院，博物馆… 都变得很极端。其实我很惊讶会变到这种地步，因为我们对德国总是会有一个幻想：自由言论 !
Nowadays, public institutions like theaters and museums are extreme, I was shocked because I always had this fantasy in Germany: free speech!
H:
我明白，但事实真的完全不是这样的。
I know, but in fact, it's not like that.
J:
就连高尔基剧院（Maxim Gorki Theater ）最近也公开发表了立场言论（有关巴以战争），很让人失望。
Even a public institute like Maxim Gorki Theater made a public statement recently… ( on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict ), it was very disappointing.
H:
我大概知道德国就是这样的，但是我没想到会到今天这种地步。
I knew it was like that, but it's full on another level now, you know.
J:
回到柏林的背景下，柏林无时无刻都有很多活动，很多新组织，私人派对，很多十分吸引人眼球的活动，在这样的背景下，如何吸引观众来参加活动也会成为很有竞争力的一件事，你们是如何定义自己的受众以及你们是如何吸引新的观众以及建立一个社区的呢？
Regarding what we just talked about, there are many events in Berlin every day, many new organizations, and parties, with a lot of very eye-catching tempting captions. In this context, how to attract audiences to participate in the events will also become a very competitive thing. How would you define your audience and how do you attract new audiences to build a community together?
H:
我想我们的研究课题本身就非常的具象。它会自然的将自己与其他类别的活动分别开，所以它们自身就具有吸引力。在每个具象的主题中，都会吸引非常特定的观众参与。这是自然而然的事。
I think the research we do is verry specific, and it kind of works by itself. It attracts very specific public on different topics naturally.
我们在这个空间最开始的时候，做过一个研讨会，是有关黑人艺术家的影像的，而我们的很多参与者都是酷儿。那天，我们的工作坊遭到了街头的攻击，有人往我们的窗户里扔了一些装满水的袋子和一块石头。 所以在某种程度上，懂得“可见”和“不可见”之间的平衡是很重要的。 我想，当然，在中国艺术背景下的人一定明白，在“可见”与“不可见”之间的良好平衡是非常有必要的。
At the very beginning of the space existing, there was a workshop here, on filmmaking for black artists. Most of the participants were queer and there was an attack to the people doing the workshop. Somebody like threw some bags full of water and a stone through the window. So in a way, learning of the balance of being visible and invisible is quite useful. I mean, for sure, in Chinese art world context, people could understand that, a good balance between being visible and invisible is always convenient.
另外，不知何故， 有些人通过奇奇怪怪的方式听说，来到我们这个空间。我真的不明白。我想有些人是通过其他人听说了我们，有些人是通过网络。有些人是路过看到了我们的标牌，但实际上从街上很难发现我们的空间，我们很隐形。你可能没看到，我们在两个门之间有一个标牌。
Somehow people get to know about the space in interesting ways. And I don't understand. I mean, the Internet helps a lot. Some people were passing and saw our sign, but actually, the space is very invisible from the street. You maybe didn't see it, but there's like a sign between like….
J:
粉红色的标牌。
A pink sign.
H:
是的，有的人看到了标牌，然后他们会在网上搜一搜我们，了解一下我们是做什么的，然后下一次我们做活动的时候，他们就会来参与。但只有很少量的人是这样知道我们的。我感觉大部分是通过口口相传，还有就是网络。我感觉我们的观众增加的很快。
Yeah, someone who told me they saw a sign from the street and then researched it, and then they came to our event. But I think this is very rare. I think most of the people knew us from word of mouth or the internet. I feel our audience is growing fast.
G:
是的，有一个周末我们的社交媒体增加了很多粉丝。因为汉娜参加了一个艺术博览会，我们在那里有一个展位，我们还在另一个艺术空间做了一场表演…如果你去其他的空间，就我们认识很多新的人。
Yeah, we gained many followers on social media on one weekend,,because Hannah attended an art fair and had a booth there, and we did a performance in another art space... If you go to other spaces, you can catch some new people.
H:
是的，与其他的组织合作也是一个非常好的方式增加曝光度。与其他的空间一起合作，让人们知道我们也有一个有趣的空间，让人们知道其实每一个空间都不是一样的。比如我们上次在艺博会上认识到我们的观众，其实和我们平时的受众群体的观众很不一样的。
Yes, Collaborating with other spaces is a very good way. Letting people know that you are also having a space. But it's interesting because the public in each space is not the same. So it's also a kind of very different public. In that art fair, the audience was very different from our usual audience.
J:
你们最近都做了一些什么活动？
What events have you guys done recently?
H:
今年九月我们举办了两场活动，都是类似艺术博览会的活动。一场是在丹麦奥胡斯的 Juxtapose 艺术博览会，同时，我们在博物馆岛参加了 BPA（柏林艺术家计划)。还有一个活动在巴黎，我们试图筹集资金对“橙剂”提起诉讼，这是一家在越南战争期间提供化学品的化学公司，因为他们的化学药剂会产生基因突变，所以他们的孩子也是受害者，我们举办了一场电影放映活动和一些像插图展览这样的活动来筹集资金，作为展览的一部分，我们举办了研讨会和学习小组。 虽然还不算很多内容，但已经让我们精疲力尽。
We had two events in September,one was at Juxtapose Art Fair in Aarhus in Denmark, and the other was at the same time here, we were being as a collective (Tian Guoxin, Liu Chao and Hannah O'Flynn, aqs Pibao Gongsi) doing a performance in the Museum Island while hosted in the BPA Room (Berlin Program for Artists).There is also an event where we were trying to raise money for a lawsuit by the victims of Agent Orange against the chemical companies that provide chemicals during the Vietnam War. The victims were giving genetic mutations so their children became also victims. It was a court case in Paris and we did an event with film screening and some like illustration exhibition to get money for that, we did workshops and study group as part of the exhibition. It's not even so much, but it's already so exhausting.
我 们 现 在 有 一 个 展 览， 来 自 伊 朗 艺 术 家 Sepideh Behrouzian，她制作了一部短片和一个学习小组。事实上，她已经开始和我们的空间合作下一个项目了，她正在研究伊朗政治背景下的发展理念。她的大部分作品都都是影像相关的，她也在做学习小组的事情。
Right now, we have an exhibition, by Sepideh Behrouzian. She made a film and a study group. She already had an ongoing collaboration with the space. She is researching development in the political context in Iran, most of her works are film-related.
J:
您认为未来十年人与人之间的关系会发生怎样的变化？
How do you think relationships between people will change in the next ten years?
H:
我很绝望，在我的眼里，这个世界正在崩溃，当然这是我的绝望的想法。我想在未来的十年，会有一些人仍然团结在一起，但也有很多人在更加的异化彼此。但我想拥有一些天真的希望也许会带来一些改变。我们不能屈服于绝望，我想这个空间就是在做这样的尝试。
I'm pretty hopeless. In my eyes, the world is collapsing every day. Some people are getting together, and some people are getting more and more against each other. But I guess being naïve and hopeful can actually create some change, and we cannot afford to give into hopelessness. I guess the space is an attempt to do that.
J:
疫情期间你们是怎么维系的？
How did you sustain ''with the rubbles'' during the pandemic?
H:
我们没有在疫情期间获得的资助。所以，整个疫情封锁的时间里，我都在认真的给这个空间粉刷墙壁和建立我们的网站。 它没有帮助我们维持经济，但确实给了我们时间。
所以其实相比而言…现在的我们比疫情期间更困难一些，哈哈。
This space was funded in the middle of the pandemic. I used the pandemic lockdown, to focus only on painting the walls and setting up our website. It didn't sustain at all, but it did give us time. It was a coincidence, that we got funding at the time, At the start of the pandemic in Germany, there was a lot of funding going around, we just had survival income and not be too stressed about making work.
Actually, I think now it's more difficult, haha.
J:
还有其他你觉得有趣的艺术空间吗？
Could you recommend to us some art space that you found interesting?
H:
说实话，我不太了解正在发生的事情。
Honestly, I don't know what's going around in general.
在德国的环境，因为我们有更多的资助，这允许更多地关注与研究本身。但在中国和西班牙等其他地方，我想经济状况会迫使你对你的空间的重点进行转移，比如在缺乏资金的状况下，压力使得你必须更关注于作品的商业价值。因为现在我们有资金的帮助，所以我们还可以去做一些卖不出去的作品。（笑）
The funding context in Germany allows you to be more focused on the research. Depending on the economic situation, you have to focus more on production. In other places, like China and Spain, the pressures make it tough for spaces to survive without a commercial angle. With the help of the funding, we are still able to make artwork that wouldn't sell. ( laugh)